The following is my response to a young man leading a small group of men in the Word of God. I have discovered when people have a ministry in which they are giving out to others, they are more interested in discovering and applying the Scriptures.
Here is his question, and my response:
Hi Dale,
I hope all is well and you’re ramping up for spring! I had another question come up via one of the gents in my group and I would love your perspective if you have time to noodle on it. No pressure, and no rush. I never want you to feel like you have to put something together for me/us.
Here’s the question:
As we reviewed John 8 (specifically 8:50), Jesus highlights that the Lord seeks glory. This is obviously a theme throughout the Bible, and we know that we were created (at least partially) to give glory to the Lord. That in itself seems great, but when you put it in the context of all the suffering in the world, and that some will live this life only to spend eternity with the clenching and gnashing of teeth, it is a harder pill to swallow. Especially in the context of predestination.
How are we to justify the fact that a God that needs nothing, so He didn’t need us to glorify Him, but still created us knowing that others would suffer so he could be glorified by man. It seems selfish. We know the Lord is not selfish but is actually selfless. It’s just difficult to wrap our minds around this specific facet of Him.
I fully get that this is a big question. If you have time, I look forward to your response. Enjoy the rest of your week! Chat soon.
Jesse
My Response:
Jesse, once again, thank you for sending me your thoughts and the questions that the guys are posing. They are thought provoking.
About John Eight
It is important to look at the context and what the passage is saying. I have chosen to copy it below.
“48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed`16 49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’” – John 8:48-52 NIV
From this passage Christ is stating that the Father is the One that seeks to give Him (Christ) the glory. To give glory means to amplify one’s character. The NLT makes this even more clear.
“And though I have no wish to glorify myself, God is going to glorify me. He is the true judge.” – John 8:50 NLT
This passage is not addressing the issue of the suffering in the world or hell. In the context, Christ is responding to the malicious charges that He had a demon.
Though Christ did not seek His own glory, “there is One who seeks” honor for the Son—the Father. He (God) judges rightly, and has determined that His Son is worthy of glory. Both at Christ’s baptism (Matthew 3:7) and at his transfiguration (Matthew 17:5) the Father said of the Son, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Because the Son obediently humbled Himself even to the point of death on the cross, God the Father wished to glorify Him.
“9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and [that] every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” – Philippians 2:9-11 NASB (emphasis added)
In an Old Testament counterpart to this passage, the psalmist described the Father’s glorifying of the Son:
“6 For the Lord declares, “I have placed my chosen king on the throne in Jerusalem, on my holy mountain.” 7 The king proclaims the LORD’s decree: “The LORD said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father. 8 Only ask, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance, the whole earth as your possession. 9 You will break them with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots.'” 10 Now then, you kings, act wisely! Be warned, you rulers of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD with reverent fear and rejoice with trembling. 12 Submit to God’s royal son, or he will become angry, and you will be destroyed in the midst of all your activities–for his anger flares up in an instant. But what joy for all who take refuge in him!” – Psalm 2:6-9, 11 NLT
Along those same lines, Psalm 110:1 says, “A psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.” – Psalm 110:1 NLT
And in Isaiah the Father declared of the Son, “Behold, My Servant will prosper, He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.” – Isaiah 52:13 NASB. After His death and resurrection, Christ ascended to the place of supreme honor at the Father’s right hand. “Jesus replied, “You have said it. And in the future, you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.” – Matt. 26:64 NLT
There are many such Scriptures, but I will stop with one in 1 Peter.
“Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.” – 1 Peter 3:22 NLT
To those who honor and glorify Him by obedience to His call to salvation, Christ promised,
“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death” – John 8:51 NASB. When John uses “Amen, amen” (truly, truly), it is always because he is introducing a statement of major significance.
I think it is intriguing that Christ said, “He (God) is the true judge,” in verse 50. With a high view of our Holy God, which we have ☺, He only has the right to judge, and His judgment will be fair and accurate.
“[He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.” – Deuteronomy 32:4 KJV
“I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.” – John 5:30 NLT
I did not mean to ramble about this passage, but I am simply attempting to clarify.
Since you mentioned suffering and hell, I will render a few of my thoughts.
Pain and suffering in the world.
“19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22 For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.” – Romans 8:19-23 NLT
There is so much to say about all these verses, but here are a few of my brief comments.
• The world is enslaved to sin and decay, and we are part of that ruin (verses. 23, 24).
Examples close to home for me are Brock (our second grandson) suffering with Hodgkins Lymphoma Cancer, and Jude, the son of Seth and Vanessa, with incurable Tuberous Sclerosis Complex. For me, if God is just and He can do all things, which He can, I am assuming that He is choosing not to intervene to bring physical healing on their behalf.
Can I live with that and trust that God will be fair in the end? It is not a copout, but the reality is that some things will be understood and judged only when we face Christ. While here, on this side of heaven, for me as a grandparent God calls me to surrender, obey, and salute! I call it my SOS signal—Surrender, Obey, Salute.
We seem to trust God when things are good, but what about when things are not-so-good? Generally, many of us in the Christian community suffer with a narcissistic view of God almost like He is our butler to serve our every want and need. God owes me nothing, but it is difficult to live with this reality when I see the heartache that it causes. As you said, this is “difficult to wrap our minds around.”
Another example close to home is Steve, in my Bible Study who was crippled for life and suffers in excruciating pain every day because of a botched surgery to his back. He is a strong resolute warrior for Christ despite his daily challenges.
In my past college years my history teacher at OSU raised his fist in front of our class and asked me directly, “How can you believe in a God who would cause so much suffering?” There is much to say about his theology, but he is not alone. “and they cursed the God of heaven for their pains and sores. But they did not repent of their evil deeds and turn to God.” – Revelation 16:11 NLT
I guess repentance is pretty important!
Even Job did not receive an answer for his suffering. God only asked him 70 rhetorical questions about the physical creation introduced by the question, “Where were you…” Job 38:4? This is sobering if you ask me.
I think God created us because He wished us to experience Him and His magnificent geographical creation, but more importantly, the creation of us! Being made in His image, we can love deeply and sacrificially, enjoy each other, think abstractly, experience the full gamut of emotions, live a life of fulfillment, purpose, contentment, as well as experience all the human capacities for pleasure and, yes, even pain. There is no greater reward than to live for God’s holy purposes and see His presence manifested in our lives and the lives of others. Heaven starts here on earth when we vigorously engage in knowing Him and doing His will.
“For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life–to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.” – John 17:2-3 NLT
“I could have no greater joy than to hear that my children are following the truth.” – 3 John 1:4 NLT
In many ways Elohim created us by viewing the glass as half-full☺!
Jesse, would you and Erin rather have Lincoln, Clair, and Scarlet than not have them? Did you have children thinking, “I don’t want children because they could get sick or die?” You had the free will to bring children in the world knowing that there would be difficulty. But did that stop you?
Would Jeff and Heather, Seth and Vanessa not have Brock or Jude because they knew they would suffer? My take is that they would still want those precious guys despite all the hardships and pain in this life.
The Moral Rational for Hell
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” – 2 Peter 3:9 ESV
Hell is a provision of righteous love! To force people in rebellion against God to submit to His kingdom against their will would be cruel to those people and to those who are willingly in submission to God. The Creator has no interest in disharmony and conflict in His heavenly kingdom.
So, for those who refuse the offer of God’s loving rule, there is a place where they can be free from it forever. The place where personal sovereignty is normal is called hell. It is a place of eternal conflict. Billions of willful, stubborn, prideful, selfish humans and fallen angels will compete for control. The “fire” that has been mocked and scorned by skeptics aptly describes the unending torment of the inward-focused ego.
Simply look at Luke 16:19-31 where Christ pulls back the curtain and we observe the drama being played out in the realms of heaven (Abraham’s bosom), and hell. Hell in this passage (Greek hades, equivalent to the Hebrew sheol) is not the ultimate (Greek gehenna) referred to in Matthew 10:28; the same as the “lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15). Hades is another compartment in the pit of the earth’s center, where the spirits of the unsaved dead are confined until the day of judgement.
By the way, I just came home from an appointment with my vestibular therapist. The young guy who is a linebacker for Lewis and Clark College asked me what I was doing today? I explained that I am a follower of Christ and that I write articles for my blog. What ensued was a conversation about the rationale of hell, socialism contrasted to the free market system, and the biblical bases of private property. He was very receptive and inquisitive about these subjects from a biblical point of view.
Bringing Moral Clarity to The Logic of Hell
“As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?” – Ezekiel 33:11 NLT
If heaven is the Kingdom of God where one WILL reigns supreme, resulting in peace and harmony, then hell is the logical opposite, resulting in pain and conflict. To a soul in rebellion, God’s kingdom feels like an unbearable repression. Many respond like the adolescents in rebellion who are willing to be homeless rather than under their parents’ control and care. According to the Bible, you can choose to go your way, but you can’t control your eventual destination.
“There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.” – Proverbs 14:12 ESV
You can probably find many such passages to support this concept.
Ah! Predestination
Here are a very few of my thoughts about the massive and perplexing topic of predestination.
We stand at the door of the kingdom of God and above the door is the word, CHOOSE. When we walk through the door and look back above it, the word CHOSEN is hanging. Christ always appealed to people’s will as if they had a choice. And we do. However, when we enter the kingdom of God we can and will not ever take credit for our salvation because without the drawing of the Holy Spirit, all mankind is doomed to hell.
“37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. … 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” – John 6:37-38, 44 NKJV
This remarkable claim starting in verse 37 asserts that no one can come to Christ merely of his own volition—though they may think, sincerely, that they are doing so. They are not, however, consciously aware of all the influences that God has been bringing on them in order to lead them to respond to Christ. These verses also promise that none who are led of the Father to Christ can ever be cast out. This involves the mystery of divine election, compared to human freedom.
Both are true because both are taught in Scripture.
I look at Choose and Chosen like a railroad track, both rails are necessary for the train to travel.
Well, I know my response is a little disjointed, but I hope you can make sense of some of it, and I will try to do better next time.
Wow, do I ever appreciate you!
In Christ,
Dale
PS: Here are his comments to my responses:
This is great, thank you so much!
I really appreciate all the thought and effort you put into this. Honestly, even the initial point you make of the Father wanting the glory for the Son makes a huge difference. We were discussing it more in the context of the Father wanting and seeking glory for Himself. Always a little cloudy considering they are one in the same, but it clarifies the passage. I need to utilize the NLT more often than I do for a secondary resource.
I’m looking forward to passing this one on and reviewing it as a group!
I’ll keep you posted on what we discuss in the coming weeks!
Thanks again,
Jesse
My PS to his comments ☺:
The role of the Father is uniquely different than the Son. Since God cannot be seen and never will be seen, Christ is the physical manifestation of the Father. God wishes to glorify Him (Christ) because He is our avenue for salvation!
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him.]” – John 1:18 NASB95
The NLT is excellent at times. It is worth using four different study Bibles with four different translations. They are: The Henry Morris Study Bible (KJV), The MacArthur Study Bible (NASB), the ESV Study Bible, and the Life Application Study Bible (NLT). I find at times each one explains a passage more accurately and/or with greater clarity. Enjoy them all!
Finally, ☺
In Christ,
Dale
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